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Did the *GlowStick* GS3 see excess heat? [UPDATE#1 - significant discovery affecting replications]

Written by Robert Greenyer on .

Alan analysed the data from the calibration, active and subsequent re-heat runs and whilst it appears at that some of the observed departure from calibration can be explained by wire binding and movement - not all can be see below.



For all the data and Notes, block diagram, schematics, bill of materials for the experiment go here

https://goo.gl/9P85Gs

Jack Cole commented on the experiment also compared the family of GS3 charts produced by followers Sanjeev, Ged and Ecco during the GS3 run with his own data, see this graph clip



that had a similar behaviour to one of his own experiments that he suspected of producing excess heat.

"Here is a chart from an experiment I did that showed apparent excess heat."

Notice the similarities...

He went on to say "The declining and increasing power above the Parkhomov zone make it less likely that moved or constricted coils are the explanation. The coil would have to be shifting about to create an effect like that."

It is too premature to call anything, a post tear-down calibration may help, the real clincher would be evidence of elemental or isotopic ratio changes in the ash. Here is what the plan is in that direction in Alan's own words:

"I'll be opening the GS3 reactor on Monday after checking the residual pressure. Then I'll pump it down to vacuum and leave it for a while to de-load the hydrogen. After reinstalling the core thermocouple I'll do a final calibration run. These steps will be done with the reactor in place on the test stand, without disturbing the thermocouples or heater coil.

As a final step I'll remove the fuel and divide it into samples for isotopic analysis."

Whatever the outcome, we have to thank Alan and Skip for a job very well done.


UPDATE#1 - significant discovery affecting replications

Further study of *GlowStick* GS3 reveals important finding that all replicators need to consider.

Over the past few weeks, Alan Goldwater has conducted a study with the GS3 cell following observation of some strange behaviour of the in-cell K-type thermocouple in the post run book-end calibrations.

We have been discussing it for some time and Alan has now produced a report summarising the findings.

https://goo.gl/guRhzl

Thanks again to Alan for some excellent research.

This has implications for choice of materials, failure modes of heaters where thermocouples are in proximity and also for potential stimulation through the reactor body and fuel - perhaps that may explain one of the reasons for 3 phase - large differentials between coils.

Anyhow we would be interested on your thoughts.

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0 #27 GlowFish 2015-07-17 11:13
@AlanG

Do you have a capacitance meter? It would be interesting to see what capacitive coupling there could be between the surface area of the coil and the surface of the fuel (with the tube being the insulator between them).
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0 #26 Ecco 2015-07-17 04:05
@AlanG: thank you. That makes more sense now.
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+1 #25 AlanG 2015-07-16 23:52
@Ecco
I have to make a minor correction to your statement. I measured 100 volts peak-to-peak at the thermocouple, with 100 volts RMS on the heater. The leakage voltage was thus only ~32 Vrms. The measurement was made with a 10x scope probe (10 megohm input impedance), so the current was ~4 uA.
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0 #24 Ecco 2015-07-16 12:06
@Robert Greenyer: it certainly is interesting! With the assumption that on a faithfully performed replication maximizing this effect a substantial amount of power from the heater wire will directly discharge inside the tube at high temperature, everything matters, even using a flat ribbon wire. I'm really thinking that the current leakage is the main key point for excess heat here.

If Alan Goldwater was able to see pretty much the same voltage as the resistor with no significant voltage drop, this was probably already happening almost as much as it could and perhaps a way to optimize it would be ensuring perfect electrical contact and that the tube isn't also leaking current elsewhere.

I probably most likely need my calculations to be checked out, but with a 2*10^7 ohm-cm volume resistivity @ 1000°C for Coorstek AD-998 alumina, the voltage drop along its thickness should have been significant.


As I've written on lenr-forum, I don't think the entire tube became almost as conducting as metal in his case, but rather that perhaps lithium and nickel managed with time, pressure and temperature to diffuse into the tube and create in a few spots short circuiting paths with the resistor wire at a sufficiently high temperature and voltage.
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0 #23 Robert Greenyer 2015-07-16 11:28
@Ecco

Actually, I think you will find that that was niChrome flat resistance wire from a toaster!

But this wire is interesting
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0 #22 Ecco 2015-07-15 10:42
@MFMP / AlanG: wouldn't using a ribbon resistor wire improve electrical contact with the inner tube and thus also the current leak effect at high temperature? Thinking about it, it's what Parkhomov also used last December!


i.imgur.com/lm4TauG.jpg


i.imgur.com/c8Gozst.jpg
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0 #21 Ecco 2015-07-07 04:55
@MFMP: while I was searching up information for something not exactly related with Rossi I ended up on JONP and found this totally by chance:

www.journal-of-nuclear-physics .com/.../

Quote:
Robertgennick
February 12th, 2015 at 10:31 AM

Dr Rossi:
Can you inform the teams that are trying to replicate your results which is the treatment you do on alumina to make the reactors?
Thank you,
R.
Quote:

Andrea Rossi
February 12th, 2015 at 11:42 AM

Robertgennick:
Sorry, this is one of the most important know hows related to the operation of the E-Cat.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Misdirection? I can't say, but it does seem to hint that the alumina tubes he uses are pretreated (doped), which is incidentally what I was speculating lately.

EDIT: this also makes me question if Inconel can be "doped" too, as Rossi once said. Was he trying to cover up the treatment performed on the alumina tube or did he literally meant that? Could it be something done to the passivating Al2O3 layer to improve high temperature electrical conductivity? Would it work without negatively affecting its reliability? (and, would it actually make any difference?)

EDIT2: another big question: can we safely assume that the emissivity of an alumina tube doped from the inside (with lithium and/or one or more transition metals) would remain the same as a plain, untreated one?
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0 #20 Ecco 2015-07-06 05:07
@AlanG: it might be of interest to check out how diffusion is performed in the semiconductor industry. It's one of the processes commonly used to dope semiconductors for improving their electronic properties. This could be more relevant than it seems at first as Rossi worked on thermoelectric generators in previous years and must have learned at least a trick or two from that experience.

Doped mullite will be even more conductive at high temperatures.

EDIT: semi-random links on the subject which could be interesting or useful:
ece.umd.edu/.../...
personal.cityu.edu.hk/.../...
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+2 #19 AlanG 2015-07-06 04:33
First, regarding the switch to mullite tubes, this is the most obvious difference between the GS2/GS3 and Parkhomov's reactors. It may have resulted in the difference in pressure between the two, by permeation and/or reaction of hydrogen with the SiO2 in the tubes he uses.

Further, current flow through the tube body/fuel interface might promote diffusion if the tube is at all permeable. Something like electrophoresis , ionic transport of the liquid metal into the tube surface, along with lots of H+ ions.

For the mullite GS4 cell at 1200 C, I expect to see 10's of milliamperes leakage current. I've ordered a 2 kVA isolation transformer for the heater power circuit. With this improvement, GS4 can still use thermocouples mounted on alumina coil covers, backed up by an IR pyrometer.
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